A friend of mine, who is agnostic, challenged my faith by throwing the hell question at me. "Joel, you believe that a loving God would send someone to hell to suffer for eternity with no possible way out?" He continued, "What possible finite sin could deserve infinite punishment"? and then he went on to give examples of all sorts of sins and infamous evil persons such as Hitler, which of course was easier to emotionally understand eternal punishment for, but for the many others average "sinners" the math didn't add up.
I must admit that this was a toughy for me because in my own heart I couldn't see doing this to someone and yet the Greatest Lover was able to. Ouch! Theologians across the spectrum mostly agree that God's goodness is the root of all theology. I did think about this a whole lot because if God is not good then my whole faith crumbles.
Furthermore, how I see the goodness of God then informs my attitude towards people. My own experience is that when I encounter the love and goodness of God on a deeper level, I feel more compassion and affection for those around me. So, for me this question has meaning?
Can God be good and send people to hell? Do you have a different way you'd like to frame the conversation? Other thoughts....
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Here is a different way to think about the question “what about hell?” Image if you will our lives are like a train on tracks laid out for us from the day you were born. The destination of the train is hell. You think that you are in control of the train, because you sit in the engineer’s seat, you control the speed of the train, you stop at different stations, you let people on or off the train and you blow the whistle. But not matter what you do in your power the train’s final destination is hell. Now there is a person (God) that has been on the train from the beginning and has never gotten off the train. He has offered to take control of the train and change direction of the train by switching tracks for you, but in order for him to do this you need to “give up control” of the train to him and then you can change course. He has made that offer to you from the moment the train left the station. If we look at the question of “what about hell?” from this perspective, it takes the weight of sin out of the equation. No matter how big or small the sin is, if you have not allowed God to take control of the train the train’s final destination is hell. And this does not take away the fact that God is good, it actual supports that fact that God is good. God wants to save us from the fate of hell, by offering to take control of the train and changing course, but it must be done freely by you. This also supports the fact that we have free will in the decision in what our final destination is heaven or hell.
ReplyDeleteAn old quote from Larry Norman: You don't go to hell because you're good. You don't go to heaven because you're bad. You go to heaven because you asked to. You go to hell because you don't want to go to heaven.
ReplyDeleteSo, maybe God does not "send" people to hell at all. For anyone who is not thrilled with the idea of singing praise to God for all eternity.
Having posted this once, I messed it up; here it is one more time:
ReplyDeleteAn old quote from Larry Norman: You don't go to hell because you're bad. You don't go to heaven because you're good. You go to heaven because you asked to. You go to hell because you don't want to go to heaven.
So, maybe God does not "send" people to hell at all. For anyone who is not thrilled with the idea of singing praise to God for all eternity.
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ReplyDeleteWhen people tell me that they cannot believe in a "good" God who would send people to hell, I respond, "Neither can I". As someone who believes in Jesus, I can profess and claim witness to a God that does not want people to be separated from him any more than those people want to be separated from him. God, according to Christian theology, has done everything possible to reconcile God's people to his love, to a better way.
ReplyDeleteIn this way, I would agree with Kevin's assertion that God does not "send" people to hell. If we stand by the claim that there is a hell, then people choose to go there by rejecting God - in spite of everything God has done to help them choose otherwise. One can easily make the argument that a person who is so blinded by a lifetime of misguided choices might be unable to see that they are sending themselves to eternal separation from God by rejecting their only possibility for eternal life.
But, that is assuming that there is a hell. Perhaps the most important question concerning salvation is whether Jesus died for the possibility of salvation or whether he died for the reality of salvation. The distinction is clear - either Jesus died once and for all, paying for the sins of every man, woman and child, forever bridging the gap between God and God's people * or * Jesus offered the possibility of salvation to all those who would choose to have faith before their physical death. For those who would retract at the notion that Jesus' sacrifice paid the debt for all sinners regardless of the sinner's willingness to accept it, just know that there is a strong Biblical case for this idea and many theologians ascribe to this notion.
Do I believe that? I would like to. It is certainly the most palatable and congruent with whom I know God to be. When Jesus "descended into Hades” how could that possibly not be obliterated by his mere presence? Some make the argument that if you deny that Jesus' sacrifice paid for every sinner’s debt outright, it detracts from what Jesus actually did on the cross or what his sacrifice actually meant. Claiming that a person is going to heaven because they know Jesus, or hell because they don't, sounds a lot like Gnosticism/Mysticism to me (which is to say that it sounds like people want to claim salvation comes through a special knowledge, rather than the sacrifice and grace of the living God).
But there is also a great deal about the importance of faith throughout both the Old and New Testament, which I cannot ignore. Particularly when Paul states in 1 Corinthians that grace is made possible by our faith or Romans 5 when he states that we are justified by faith. Faith is definitely important, but what role it plays in salvation, I cannot say for sure.
I, for one, have typically avoided talking too much about heaven and hell - because anything we can say is conjecture at best. I tend to focus my theodicy on explaining the benefits of following Jesus this very day. There are millions of people who will testify to the goodness of God right now - so we should follow God because it is the right thing to do, and if we submit ourselves to God's care today, then I believe we will have nothing to worry about in the proverbial tomorrow.
Thanks for your thoughtful feedback. This is not the easiest topic to begin blogging about but I liked the spirit of the dialogue.
ReplyDeleteEric did bring up some additional frameworks for us to enter this conversation that may appear in future posts.
I appreciate the honesty of our own struggles with a God who sends people to hell. What seems to be true for those of you who did reply is that your experience of God is that God is good.
Rather than continue this conversation through replies, I will start another be branching off of this or maybe not. Feel free to make any suggestions on topics as well.
Joel, I don't look at the whole hell issue as God sending us to hell. He has given us every opportunity to turn away from sin, time and time again he has forgiven us through the blood of Jesus. If people are going to hell it is because they choose to.
ReplyDeleteWow, this blog site is great!!! I just wanted to share something I've been thinking about this subject. I view HEAVEN and HELL this way, as humans we have a choice to be on a team... either God's or Satan's. The gift of "free will" to follow or not follow whom you so choose.
ReplyDeleteYes, God is a loving God but if you don't take the step and ask Jesus into your heart, mind, body, soul, spirit and try your best every day to follow him then you're on Team "Heaven"... if instead, you want to do what you want to do, when you want to do it, regardless... deny God... deny his son, Jesus Christ.... sin, sin, and sin some more and not care.. then you have made a decision to go with TEAM HELL.
Satan is the captain of Team Hell, the one who challenged God himself!!! If you're on Team "Hell" you are losers for eternity ~~ defeated forever. I think all humans are automatically on Team Hell until we ask the Lord into our heart then we are traded to TEAM HEAVEN. ;)
On either team Heaven or Hell, I'm sure you can be a strong superstar team mate or a luke warm one.... I believe it's up to you how you live your life here on earth. I like to think of these two teams in the present tense not just future.
Of course, God wants you to choose his team and not Satan's!!! He is loving and not spiteful and I believe it breaks his heart that people will ultimately choose TEAM HELL. Just as I'm sure it broke his heart when Lucifier stopped loving him and wanted to be greater than him, his OWN CAPTAIN.
I believe that God is so great and forgiving and loving that he would FORGIVE SATAN if SATAN changed (sincerely) and regretted his actions.. but you and I know that is not what prophecy states. SATAN will be put in the pit of hell. Satan LOVES evil. He LOVES being Captain of Team Hell and doesn't plan on giving up taking others with him. Don't get tempted by Team's Hell bonuses, perks all the sneaky sin that Satan tricks you into thinking is better, cooler or make you feel good.. trying to grab you back over to Team Hell. Remember, Team Hell will be defeated in the pit of hell.
When I was young girl I remember asking myself this question, "Should we love Satan because in the Bible it says "Love thine enemy?" Satan is my most obvious enemy. Should I love him? OF COURSE NOT, because SATAN does NOT LOVE GOD.
But humans have a chance to change their decision of what team they want to really be on for eternity, Team “Heaven” or Team “Hell” up until their last moments of life. Yes….. love your enemies… (but you don’t have to love their actions!!!)
I think loving your enemies may help bring Team Heaven’s free agents from Team Hell!!! Perhaps through showing God’s love to our enemies, they will experience the love of God and want more of him – if not when you showed the love but maybe someway, somehow before they die they may become a “free agent” and ask the Lord into their heart and make the cut to Team Heaven.
Go Team HEAVEN!!!!
Correction: remove the word "but" and "don't"
ReplyDeleteYes, God is a loving God -- if you take the step and ask Jesus into your heart....
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Sorry about that...